A contentious interview on NBC’s Meet The Press between presidential advisor Rudy Giuliani and host Chuck Todd devolved into a word salad, with the former New York mayor eventually declaring, “Truth isn’t truth.”

In a moment reminiscent of Bill Clinton’s famous struggles with the word “is,” Giuliani and Todd waltzed around the language bush, each winding up admitting that the exchange was likely going to result in a bad meme.

Todd had been pressing Giuliani on the Robert Mueller investigations, which Giuliani contended were being dragged out by Mueller’s team. Todd asserted that President Trump’s team was actually the responsible party and that all could be resolved if the President testified.

“They have taken 2-3 weeks to get back to us,” Giuliani said, “so what I have to tell you is, look, I am not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury. And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he’s going to tell the truth and he shouldn’t worry, well that’s so silly because it’s somebody’s version of the truth. Not the truth. He didn’t have a, a conversation —

Todd interrupted. “Truth is truth. I don’t mean to go like —

Giuliani leaped at that. “No, it isn’t truth. Truth isn’t truth. The President of the United States says, “I didn’t — ”

Todd couldn’t resist interrupting. “Truth isn’t truth? Mr. Mayor, do you realize, what, I, I, I–” Todd then admitted the exchange “is going to become a bad meme.”

Giuliani glumly admitted that possibility. “Don’t do, don’t do this to me.”

Todd concluded that portion of the exchange: “Don’t do truth isn’t truth to me.”